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Thursday, March 21, 2024

ChatGPT on a Remark Leonard Bernstein Made to Duke Ellington [intention, intuition, and tacit knowledge]

I have been arguing recently that meaning consists of intentionality and semanticity, where intentionality inheres in the relationship between the interlocutors (even if they are not face-to-face and synchronous) and semanticity inheres in the linguistic/cognitive system. Semanticity, in turn, consists of relationality and adhesion, where relationality is the relationships words have among themselves and adhesion inheres in the perceptual and motor linkages words have with the external world. In this view, meaning in LLMs is a matter of relationality.

I recently performed an experiment which bears on ChatGPT’s capacity to approximate intentional meaning in a conversation. In this case, a conversation between Duke Ellington and Leonard Bernstein. Back in 1966 the two had a conversation that was televised on station WTMJ-TV. Here’s the video clip:

I wrote a blog post where I included a clip of the conversation along with commentary and transcriptions of bits here and there. At about 05:53 Bernstein remarked to Ellington: “...you wrote symphonic jazz and I wrote jazz symphonies.” The two men then shook hands.

In my commentary I wrote that the actual assertion was not very meaningful, and that both men surely knew it, but that much was conveyed indirectly. That meaning derived from the fact that both men were, in effect, acting as representatives of two cultural traditions and so Bernstein’s remark, and Ellington’s acceptance, had the weight of a cultural negotiation.

I was curious about how much of that ChatGPT would be able to pick up. So I transcribed a bit of the conversation up to that point and asked the Chatster what was going on. Here’s that interaction. My prompts are in boldface while ChatGPT's responses are plain face (except for bolded topics on numbered lists).I’ve inserted some comments which I’ve aligned to the right-hand margin and highlighted thus. At the end of the interaction I have some general remarks about ChatGPT’s performance, including some remarks about ChatGPT’s lack of intuitive or tacit knowledge.

* * * * *

In 1966 Duke Ellington and Leonard Bernstein were interviewed on television. They were asked to talk about the state of music in America. I am going to give you part of that conversation, including the interviewer, and then I want to ask you about it.

Here’s the interview:

Leonard Bernstein: As a matter of fact there's tremendous diversity taking place. Diversification I should say because it's in the process of happening. But there has been a tremendous spread away from the metropolises to smaller cities to university campuses communities of various sorts and sizes.

I mean popularly referred to as the cultural explosion which is a word that occasions some dismay among the higher brow critics. But it's a thing that I am very proud of and happy to see happening because it's not a fake explosion. It's a real one and it's penetrating everywhere everywhere in the country.

Interviewer: Mr. Ellington how do you feel on the same point?

Duke Ellington: Well, I'm very happy to know that the american audience is maturing.

Inteviewer: And maturing you feel across the country.

Ellington: Oh yes.

Interviewer: What evidence do you find in your concerts of this?

Ellington: Well ours is a rather a separate one. It's in that, you know, everybody gets their own audience more or less. And because I was just spread over a long period you know. It's we find people who met when we were playing "Mood Indigo" at a prom, or the baby was born when "Caravan" came out or "Don't Get Around much Anymore," they were seeing husband after war, or something like. We cover a lot of different generations, you know, and so it's uh you just sort of automatically have an appraisal of the scene.

Bernstein: But wouldn't you say, Duke, that one of the great signs of this explosion I was talking about is that we really share the same audiences to a much greater extent than we used to. I mean, as you say, you have your own audience. Well that used to be true and I suppose our kind of music, if you could say such a thing, used to have its own audience. But now you can't tell them apart anymore. I mean the same kids and the same excited people who come to hear you, come to hear me and that's something new.

Ellington: What what I have been trying to, in the talking of, seeing and trying to de-categorize this American, it's American music I would say. Oh the stuff that we're in, anyway. And it's getting to the point now where the modern contemporary composer and the guy who's supposed to be a modern jazz composer, they all come out of the same conservatories.

Bernstein: Exactly.

Ellington: And it's very difficult to find a place to draw the line.

Bernstein: Well you were certainly one of the pioneers in that.

Ellington: Oh yeah, but i didn't come out of the conservatory.

Bernstein: No. but you one of the the first people who wrote so-called symphonic jazz.

Ellington: I had a conservatory in the capital theater.

Bernstein: That's right exactly. Sit there and listen to the symphony before the picture. Maybe that's really the difference between us. That you wrote symphonic jazz and I wrote jazz symphonies.

Ellington laughs. They shake hands.

This conversation between Duke Ellington and Leonard Bernstein offers valuable insights into the evolving landscape of American music during their time. Here's a breakdown of some key points:

1. Diversification and Cultural Explosion: Bernstein highlights the significant diversification happening in American music, particularly away from major cities and into smaller communities and campuses. This expansion, often termed a "cultural explosion," is viewed positively by both musicians.

2. Maturing Audience: Ellington expresses satisfaction with the maturation of the American audience, indicating a broadening appreciation for music across the country.

3. Shared Audiences: Bernstein observes that the lines between different genres of music are blurring, with audiences for jazz and classical music increasingly overlapping. This suggests a more unified appreciation for music regardless of genre distinctions.

4. De-categorization of American Music: Ellington emphasizes the emergence of a unified American musical identity, transcending traditional genre boundaries. He notes the difficulty in categorizing music into distinct genres, as contemporary composers and jazz musicians share similar backgrounds and influences.

5. Symphonic Jazz vs. Jazz Symphonies: Bernstein and Ellington playfully discuss their contributions to music, with Ellington credited as a pioneer of "symphonic jazz" and Bernstein likening his own compositions to "jazz symphonies." This exchange highlights the innovative approaches each artist brought to their respective styles.

Overall, the conversation reflects a period of significant change and artistic exploration in American music, with both Ellington and Bernstein contributing to its evolution in distinct yet interconnected ways.

That’s a decent summary of the things they talked about, but it completely misses the significance of Bernstein’s remark to Ellington. So I asked ChatGPT directly about that.

What do you think Bernstein meant when he said: You wrote symphonic jazz and : wrote jazz symphonies.

When Bernstein said, "You wrote symphonic jazz and I wrote jazz symphonies," he was likely drawing a distinction between their respective approaches to blending elements of jazz and classical music.

1. Symphonic Jazz (Ellington): This term refers to Duke Ellington’s pioneering work in incorporating elements of jazz into symphonic compositions. Ellington’s compositions often featured jazz-inspired melodies, harmonies, and rhythms within the framework of larger orchestral arrangements. Examples of Ellington’s symphonic jazz compositions include “Black, Brown and Beige” and “Harlem.”

2. Jazz Symphonies (Bernstein): In contrast, Bernstein’s statement suggests that he approached the fusion of jazz and classical music from the perspective of classical symphonic composition. Rather than integrating jazz elements into symphonic works, Bernstein may have composed pieces that were structured more like traditional symphonies but infused with jazz idioms, rhythms, and improvisational elements. Examples of Bernstein’s jazz symphonies include passages from his “West Side Story” score and elements of his later orchestral works.

In essence, Bernstein’s remark reflects the different ways in which he and Ellington approached the intersection of jazz and classical music, with Ellington emphasizing jazz within symphonic contexts and Bernstein incorporating jazz elements into symphonic structures.

ChatGPT still doesn’t get it and is treating the remark as a technical one about the music itself. Let’s try again.

What are the implications of that statement? What does it say about the relationship between the two men?

Bernstein’s statement, “You wrote symphonic jazz and I wrote jazz symphonies,” carries several implications about the relationship between Duke Ellington and Leonard Bernstein, as well as their respective approaches to music:

1. Mutual Respect and Recognition: The statement suggests a mutual respect between Ellington and Bernstein for each other’s contributions to music. Both men acknowledge the innovative aspects of the other’s work, despite their differing approaches.

2. Artistic Differences: By characterizing Ellington’s compositions as “symphonic jazz” and his own as “jazz symphonies,” Bernstein implies that there are distinct differences in their musical styles and approaches. This highlights the diversity within the realm of jazz-influenced classical music and acknowledges that both men approached this fusion in unique ways.

3. Acknowledgment of Influence: Bernstein’s statement also implies an acknowledgment of influence between the two musicians. While their styles may differ, it’s likely that they were aware of each other’s work and may have drawn inspiration from it in their own compositions.

4. Playful Exchange: The exchange between Ellington and Bernstein appears to be lighthearted and playful, with both men engaging in friendly banter about their musical legacies. This suggests a level of camaraderie and mutual admiration between them.

Overall, Bernstein's statement reflects a nuanced understanding of the relationship between jazz and classical music, as well as an appreciation for the diverse ways in which musicians like Ellington and himself explored this intersection. It also underscores the importance of recognizing and celebrating the unique contributions of individual artists within the broader landscape of music.

This is much better. But I had to work a bit to get it out of ChatGPT.

Would you elaborate on that last item, playful exchange?

Certainly! The "playful exchange" refers to the light-hearted and amicable interaction between Duke Ellington and Leonard Bernstein during their conversation. Here's why it's considered playful:

1. Tone: Throughout the conversation, there's a casual and jovial tone in their dialogue. Neither Ellington nor Bernstein appears to be engaging in serious debate or disagreement; instead, they're exchanging thoughts in a relaxed manner.

2. Laughter and Humor: Ellington laughs in response to Bernstein's comment about their differing approaches to music, indicating that he finds the remark amusing. This laughter suggests a sense of camaraderie and mutual enjoyment in their conversation.

3. Friendly Banter: Bernstein's comment about "symphonic jazz" versus "jazz symphonies" can be interpreted as friendly banter or good-natured teasing. Rather than being a serious critique or comparison, it's a playful way for Bernstein to highlight the unique qualities of both Ellington's and his own music.

4. Handshake:
The exchange concludes with Ellington and Bernstein shaking hands, symbolizing mutual respect and camaraderie. This physical gesture reinforces the friendly nature of their conversation.

Overall, the playful exchange between Ellington and Bernstein adds warmth and levity to their discussion, showcasing not only their musical intellect but also their personal rapport and shared sense of humor. It reflects a genuine camaraderie between two esteemed musicians who appreciate each other's contributions to the world of music.

* * * * *

On the whole this last set of remarks is pretty good. But I took quite a bit of work for me to get ChatGPT to articulate something that I realized intuitively as soon as I heard Bernstein’s remark and say their handshake. I want to emphasize “intuitively” for two reasons. In the first place, I recognized what was going on immediately without having to explicitly verbalize my understanding of what was going on. I did that when I wrote the remarks in my blog post.

Secondly, ChatGPT doesn’t have anything like an intuitive mode. That means that, setting aside that ChatGPT is not a human being and has not seen the video, all it has are those explicit verbalizations. It was up to me, as interlocutor, to push it to reason further about that conversation. What is then interesting is that, when pushed, it finally asserted that the exchange was playful. I knew that all along, intuitively. And when I queried ChatGPT about that playfulness, it gave a good account of it. Again, that’s something I knew intuitively and nonverbally. This, I believe, is worth thinking about. In particular, just what is going on in humans with our intuitive nonverbal background understanding of what’s at state in conversational interaction. Whatever it is, that belongs to the intention component of meaning. How was ChatGPT able to infer (some of) that intention on the basis of the relational implications of the word strings? How do humans do that?

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