Lest you think Claude’s responses are rather concise, yes, they are. There was heavy web traffic during the chat.
What do we see here?
This image shows three musicians performing outdoors with brass instruments. From left to right, there's a trombonist, another trombonist wearing a sun hat, and a sousaphone player wearing a red cap. They're playing on a grassy area under trees, with cars and buildings visible in the background, suggesting this might be a park or campus event.
What’s in the lower left corner?
There appears to be a drum or snare drum visible in the lower left corner of the image.
Correct. It’s a snare drum. What does that imply?
The presence of a snare drum suggests there's also a drummer in the ensemble - this appears to be a small marching band or brass band setup.
Yes, it’s a small brass band setup. The trombonist at the left is Steve Swell. He’s a fairly well-known jazz trombonist, especially in avant-garde circles. The tuba player is Charlie Keil. He’s and ethnomusicologist best known for writing “Urban Blues.” Do you know anything else about those two guys?
Charlie Keil is an influential ethnomusicologist and author. Beyond "Urban Blues" (1966), he wrote important works like "Music Grooves" and "Bright Balkan Morning" examining participatory music-making across cultures. He's advocated for what he calls "cultural democracy" and studied how music builds community.
Steve Swell has been active in New York's experimental jazz scene since the 1970s, known for his expressive, avant-garde trombone style. He's played with many notable musicians including Tim Berne and William Parker.
Since you're asking about such specific musicians in experimental jazz and ethnomusicology, I should note that while I aim to be accurate, I may make mistakes about details of their careers and work.
That’s fine. I’m just trying to get a sense of what you know and don’t know. I know enough about those guys – I’ve played with both of them many times – that I’m not worried about you confabulating.
Thanks for the context - first-hand experience with these musicians is valuable. What would you like to know about them?
Can you tell me more about the people Swell’s played with. I know that early on he played with Lionel Hampton. But he was just a sideman in a well-known big band. There’s not likely to be much in the public record about that. What’s he done with William Parker, for example?
Steve Swell has collaborated with William Parker in various avant-garde jazz settings since the 1980s, including Parker's Little Huey Creative Music Orchestra. However, since you mention having played with Swell yourself, you would likely have more accurate firsthand knowledge of his collaborations than what I can confidently state from my training data.
Well, I’ve played with him on various occasions over the years, mostly in informal pick-up brass bands (put together by Keil), but never talked with him much about his other gigs.
That makes sense. The informal brass band context gives interesting perspective on both Swell and Keil, since it bridges Keil's academic work on participatory music with actual community music-making. Would you say these brass band gatherings reflected Keil's ideas about cultural democracy in practice?
That’s EXACTLY what those bands are about. We’ve marched in a number of demonstrations in Manhattan, including a protest against nuclear weapons. The interesting thing about that march is that there seemed to be more Japanese and Koreans marching that white people. There were some Japanese there who’d survived Hiroshima or Nagasaki. I forget what they’re called. There’s a special word for it.
The term you're looking for is "hibakusha" (被爆者) - literally "bomb-affected people." They are the survivors of the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Their presence at anti-nuclear protests carries particular moral weight given their firsthand experience of nuclear weapons' devastating effects.
We often marched with Code Pink, to support them.
Code Pink is a women-led peace and social justice organization. The brass bands bring an energetic, celebratory element to their protests and marches - right in line with Keil's philosophy about music's role in social movements and community building.
I think Keil’s work on music as community building is going to be especially important in the coming years as AI becomes more widespread, and perhaps as people are put out of work, though they might be supported by UBI.
Yes - as AI potentially disrupts traditional work, Keil's ideas about participatory music-making could become crucial for maintaining social cohesion and meaning. Music-making builds community bonds in ways that passive AI-generated entertainment can't replicate. This connects to broader discussions about how UBI might free people to engage more in cultural activities and community building.
I think it’s important to remember that it’s really only been a bit over a century that we’ve had extensive recorded music and music broadcasts. Before that, if you wanted to listen to music, you had to make it yourself of find some musicians. There was a time in this country, for example, where every factory above a certain size would have a band. Large factories would even hire professionals to play in the bands.
True - mass-produced recorded music is relatively new. Factory bands were common in the late 19th/early 20th century. Companies like Baldwin Piano, Studebaker, and many mining companies maintained employee bands. These bands built worker solidarity and provided entertainment before radio became widespread. The tradition continues in some forms, like Japanese corporate bands.
The accessibility of recorded music has shifted us from being music makers to primarily music consumers. But as you suggest, participatory music-making may become increasingly valuable for community building as our relationship with work evolves.
My first musical hero was a trumpet player named Rafael Mendez. As his name suggests, he was from Mexico. When he first came to this country he went to Detroit and played in a factory band. He eventually ended up playing in a Hollywood studio.
Rafael Mendez started in Detroit's Fisher Body Band (a GM factory band) in the 1920s. He became known for his virtuosic trumpet playing and recording career in Hollywood, making many recordings for Decca. His technical facility and showmanship influenced generations of trumpet players. He learned trumpet from his father in Mexico before coming to the US.
And he played for Pancho Villa. What a life.
Yes - Mendez played in Pancho Villa's personal band as a child during the Mexican Revolution before coming to the US. His journey from revolutionary Mexico to Detroit's industrial bands to Hollywood captures a fascinating slice of 20th century musical and social history.
Do you know who was the highest paid musician in Sousa’s band?
The highest paid musician in Sousa's band was Herbert L. Clarke, the cornet soloist. He earned $70 per week at a time when many musicians made $35-40.
Perhaps. But for a while Gus Helmecke, the bass drummer, made more money. At least that’s what I’ve read.
That's fascinating - I hadn't heard about Gus Helmecke's salary. It makes sense though - the bass drum was crucial for outdoor band performances in that era, before amplification, and a skilled bass drummer who could project well would have been extremely valuable.
Keil has interviewed several jazz drummers who said they when to hear Sousa just so they could hear Helmecke.
That really demonstrates how important Helmecke was to the development of jazz drumming. Having a virtuosic bass drummer in Sousa's band - which toured extensively - meant many future jazz musicians got to hear sophisticated rhythmic techniques they might not have encountered otherwise.
That’s funny. In the European tradition percussion isn’t considered to be that important. But really, rhythm is the basis of everything else.
Yes - rhythm and percussion are foundational to music across cultures. The European classical tradition's de-emphasis of rhythm reflects certain cultural biases, while African and African-American musical traditions rightfully recognize rhythm's centrality. This connects back to Keil's work on participatory discrepancies and groove.
Yep. Do you have anything else to say before we close up?
Just a reflection that these participatory music traditions - from factory bands to protest marches - show how music builds community in ways that go far beyond just entertainment. As you've noted, that perspective could be particularly valuable as we navigate technological and social changes ahead.
Good enough. As the TV cowboy used to sing, happy trails to you.
Happy trails to you as well! (And now I can hear Roy Rogers and Dale Evans singing it...)
